RL: So thank you for coming- or for me coming to your house. I’ve broken in.

QO: Yes, I live here. 

RL: Okay. Can you please introduce yourself to the audience? Who do you want to be known as?

QO: My name is Quinn “Goatmilkofficial” O’connell. And I make things. They’re not for the internet, but they end up there. They don’t belong to anyone, including me. 

RL: Okay, so they’re not for anyone.

QO: They’re really against anyone if anything.

RL: That’s true. So, what is your journey with design? And you don’t have to be nice about it.

QO: I’m not going to be nice about it. But I really, I do love design. And I love that, like all of the elements and discoveries and design, and the passion that people have for it, and how it relates to, like user experience, and how it relates to making and the clarity with which you can convey information through the discoveries we’ve made through design up until this point. 

I do not like its application. In the world we live in right now. And the world we’ve lived in for a very long time, I think most of the time, we’ve had the word graphic design, it’s been a, an empty, soulless profession filled with people that are doing their best for people who don’t care about them. And there’s been some great, like, ideas from that. But I’m really more interested in how it can be used in other ways. 

RL: You know, there’s like a of graphic design in art.

QO: Yeah. And I’m more curious about that relationship than the relationship between like corporate graphic design, and people like the relationship between like, ideas that you can’t maybe 100% know whether somebody is going to get it or not. But you can make it as clear as possible for them to get it. 

So, like you have this art project that has type in it, the type is readable. That is not the thing that’s in the way of people understanding the art is exciting to me, where it’s like, okay, that’s out of the way now we can get to some of the bigger ideas here. That’s, that’s my relationship with design.

RL: That’s real. I shared a project idea recently with someone and they recommended me- it was like tied around experience design. And they recommended me the five E’s of experience design model. I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. And then I Googled it. And it was basically a marketing thing rather than like artistic design. 

Yeah, so I was like, “Oh, I wanted to have this experience design of silly experiences where you could like let go of graphic design and kind of do whatever you want. And then it’s just like, hey, how do you apply this corporate like marketing scheme into this experience.

QO: I think it’s so unfortunate in like, a lot of the social media ecosystems, I’ve sort of seen design advice is usually more marketing or advertising advice more than it is design advice, which is super frustrating, where it’s like, people who are trying to get into it are being given these rules of thumb that only apply to things that maybe will never matter to them. I’d rather just know. Like, how people read. 

RL: Basic human senses, yeah.

QO: Like basic relationships, you know? How contrast can make your eye move across the page? And how it can stop your eye from moving across the face? You know? Because that’s what any drawing class is going to be like. Oh, if you’re going to have some bleed off the page, have it happen dynamically. Don’t have it just like the end of someone’s toe coming off the page. 

It’s going to be really frustrating to look at, but having up to their calf is gonna be like, “Ooh, where’s their leg?” You know? I mean, there are so many things in design like that where it’s like bleeding off the page, making sure that all the arrows are facing the right direction.

RL: I feel like I’ve learned more about design in my comics class about like narrative design because it’s like if you have this like little special element, how do you draw someone’s eye to it without like physically doing so? So it’s funny that design borrows so many things from other types of art and then they’re just kind of like no it’s mine, I did it. Design is very gatekeep-y in a way, within our society. 

QO: Yeah, it like pretended stone thing. The argument of: is design art, and like nobody’s right or wrong. It’s so pedantic that like it doesn’t. You’re not really proving anything at the end of the day. It’s like, when designers like, oh, it has to be that you’re always solving a problem for somebody. And that’s different than expressing yourself. 

Like, okay, but if you’re expressing someone else’s idea, how is that any different from like, the paintings that they would have made back in the eras, where the church was like, Oh, you have to make paintings about this? Like a lot of people probably didn’t give them that much of a shit about Jesus. But they expressed a lot of human emotion through that. So like, how would that be different from design? Right? In the way that you’re defining it in that context, you know, blah, blah, blah.

RL: So, you’ve talked to me, like outside of this interview, about your thesis project. And it’s kind of evolved to this life project? 

QO: Yes.

RL: You have a passion project project, your midlife crisis project. Can you share a little more about that?

QO: Yeah, I mean, the project sort of was born out of the pandemic. And us like, us as graphic designers in the program, our works became all digital, like a lot of people did. And I think most of us really needed to do a project that was off the screen, something that was physical.

And also, I think, just outside of the context of school or anything, a lot of people sort of, they were stuck inside and they regressed as people became very nostalgic about things and sort of became a child again, in uncomfortable ways. Not in the way your therapist might suggest. Like I need some sort of comfort.

RL: Oh yeah, stuck with yourself 24/7 for years. It’s like, I don’t want to be with me anymore.

QO: Exactly. It’s like who was I the last time I liked myself? You become that person for a minute. And so I sort of, I was thinking a lot about toys. And a lot of me and my dad’s relationship was surrounded around toys and making things out of other toys and like building things. 

That and my best friend from childhood, we would always make things together. And we made this world that- the idea was, what if you had a world where magic exists, and then it becomes the Sci-Fi future. So it’s like the world built around magic and monsters. But now we have like technology and trucks and stuff. And guns that shoot magic, you know, it’s weird shit. 

And one of the designs that my friend actually made herself, I was like, what if I made like a toy out of it? So I learned how to make silicone molds. And then from that make resin figures with those molds. And then she and I went and we made a website that made it look like you were breaking into a government database to like find out all this information about this government facility making these creatures that were made from these molds. 

And writing the lore for that was so satisfying. Making the advertisements about the toys was so much more interesting to me than the toys themselves. And when I got back into doing it after graduating, it sort of spiraled into like- I made one advertisement I was like, Oh, what if it was like- Instagram reels were popping up, but I was like, yeah, sort of beginning to do that. And I was like, well, I need to make it moving where I just move the background a little bit. And I was like, oh, that’s super fucking easy. 

What if the next one is a guy in a hallway and then the guy beats down a door and my friend’s like, “You’re not gonna be able to do that.” 

And I could not fucking figure it out. So, I did it on my phone. And I was like, “Fuck, this animation shit is so easy as everyone protests.” Now, it became a thing where it’s like, because I gave myself so few tools. It was like, how do I make these animations in a way that’s so easy that I can’t not do them? If you plan any animation long enough, you can figure out a way to do it that’s not going to take you 1000 hours. So it’s just cheating.

RL: I mean, technically I don’t know if it’s cheating anyone because you’ve described to me how you animate things and it’s using a bunch of applications. It’s just like layering a bunch of shit on top of each other until it looks good, but I think that’s literally what procreate dream is. It’s the same effect where you just entered this transparent PNG and move it. And then it will just do it like that.

QO: That workflow is so intuitive. I think that’s what turned me off from a lot of traditional animation, it has so much to do with nitpicky tools and hard to get into applications that no one teaches. But, you need to know all of the fundamentals in order to get something rolling. Like I got to a point animating where I had to basically do the classic ball bouncing thing that everybody says you have to start with it. 

I didn’t know how to do it. I was like, man, this is so complicated, sure, up until this point. And it’s just like, my fundamentals weren’t there. But, fundamentals be damned. 

Sometimes if you have a goal, you need to find the path of least resistance, especially when you’re working by yourself. And I honestly, in my experience in art or design, or in music, it’s a way you will learn lessons that you wouldn’t otherwise write, it doesn’t mean that it’s better or worse than taking like that, quote, unquote, correct or the path most traveled at least right. But you will definitely learn experiences that you will need the answers to again, eventually. Yeah, there’s no such thing as a waste of time when you make.

RL: Exactly, yeah. Me and Dharshanya were talking about how for previous semesters, we would have a project due every week. It’s because now we’re in our thesis semester that it’s just like you do whatever projects you want to do. Like, keep in mind that you have to make a whole book. So like, don’t give yourself too many projects. And we are struggling and feeling guilty because we just don’t have things due every week, or like, should we have something to do?

But, no matter what, we realized the making is the project, the process is not a waste of time even if there is no physical output because it’s all a learning experience in art and design. 

QO: It’s super crazy too when you graduate, and no one’s expecting anything. And there’s no homework and no projects due. And you’re like, that’s scary, whoa. That’s why I ended up going back into the toy project because I was like, I had months after I graduated. And all I did was play video games and drink and work at ViVi Bubble Tea. 

And at some point, my roommate and dearest friend was like, “Dude, you suck to be around and you’re super sad.”

And they’re like, “When’s the last time you weren’t that?” 

I was like, “Probably when I was doing that project before I graduated. I just don’t have anything to do” 

“Like, just do the project, dipshit.”

So, I started doing that ever since. 

I think, one of my fears being in graphic design was that I wouldn’t make again after graduating, especially once I get a graphic design job, right? And it’s like, you accidentally proved to yourself that when you don’t have that art in your life, you’re miserable. You know, if you’re somebody who needs to make, you will. 

There’s no, “you don’t have to be afraid of not doing it” anymore, even if you’re depressed for a while and you don’t do it. Part of that depression is probably that you’re not doing it, you know? That’s been my experience. I’ve seen that in a lot of other people after experiencing it too. I’m like, Oh, you’re sad, probably for a lot of good reasons and there’s maybe some chemicals that aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. But if you were making stuff, you’d be less probably.

RL: Yeah, that’s like an outlet, too. But yeah, so, um, for my thesis, I don’t think I need to read you the whole spiel. But, it’s about core. So, it’s like a blank and then, just core. And I never know actually how to introduce it, because I’m like, well visually, it’s just eight underscores and then core. I can’t really say eight underscores core, it’s a bit long and confusing. I can’t really say blank core, because then you assume that the word blank is in front of the core. So I’m like, I don’t know. I’m still thinking about that. But that wasn’t the spiel. 

But it’s basically about shaking things up in graphic design because I do tend to have a thing for just not doing things in a normal or easy way. And I also really like science for someone who’s into art. So I feel like my thesis is kind of like all about experimenting with people in an ethical and fun way rather than a mad scientist way where I lock you guys up and make you solve to get out. 

QO: How long did it take them to convince me not to do it that way?

RL: It didn’t take much convincing, I guess. But it’s still in the back of my head, for the record, cuz it’s recording. But, I really like the psychology of people and how people view themselves and how people view other things, especially when it’s in a community or home or like gathering that’s not very serious. 

Because then like, you know, whenever you’re in like a serious interview, you kind of lie about yourself. You put on this front that’s like, I’m so much better than what I actually am. 

QO: I’m so good at Microsoft Excel.

RL: Yeah, exactly. I know how to do the shortcuts in Microsoft Excel. But anyway, I want to see the peeled-back layer and see how people are and what people think about themselves under it. But in a silly way. 

First kind of introductory question into my thesis, if you could describe yourself, whether it’s your art, your image, your brand, in three words, what would it? And it could be like adjectives, nouns, verbs, a country. I don’t know.

QO: Surveillance punk junkie.

RL: Is that one word? 

QO: No, spaces.

RL: Surveillance, punk, and junkie. Okay.

If you had a single core dedicated to yourself, so like every single hashtag there’s no Goatmilkofficial, there’s no Quinn, it’s just whatever core out of those three words, which one would you choose? And why?

QO: Almost want to double up and say Surveillancecore? Because I feel like a lot of my aesthetic sort of comes off of the idea of like that, like paranoid technophile. Like dark tweaker.

RL: Matrix, yeah.

QO: Like there’s an era, it’s like Matrix but, unbuttoned, where it’s like, if you mixed Matrix with Always Sunny. It’s like the degenerate, but also technically savvy people. I think that’s sort of the thing that I always gravitate back towards, is somebody that’s holed up in an abandoned building, but they’ve got like, Arduinos and shit. You know what I mean?

Surveillance I think makes people feel almost like a gothic cultist. It’s like maybe not the aesthetic of it. But it’s the vibes of it in that way. That’s how I would brand Surveillancecore. But I think I would call it Surveillancecore because I feel like that that’s sort of like the God of the aesthetic is the presence of surveillance in the first place.

RL: That’s cool. I like it. Surveillancecore. I haven’t heard of it yet. 

QO: I almost said techcore. But that’s its own thing.

RL: Yeah, it’s pretty broad and too on the nose, kind of. I like Surveillancecore for you because it can hint at so much more without actually saying it or showing it. 

QO: Yeah. I think I need to have- the paranoia is almost more important than technology. Like the technology is a conduit for the paranoia. But the paranoia, if you removed all the technology, is still the most visceral-like element of it. 

RL: Yeah, so I thought of this question, because I was, I don’t know just curious. But, if I was someone from the 1400s, that’s like medieval ages-.

QO: During? What’s it called? The Dark Ages?

RL: Yeah, Dark Ages. 

QO: The blockchain is like- it’s not 1300s Remember? It might be 1400 Hold on.

RL: I don’t think it needs to be that detailed or correct. 

QO: I want a firm grasp on the 1400s before I answer. 

RL: You want to be there physically and mentally? Be in the mind space. What do those actors do? They like method act.

QO: Method acting. Yeah, start eating dirt and be a peasant. Why do you method actors never take hold when it’s being a nice character? 

RL: Yeah, forreal. Always has to be the worst, like I have to be a dick to you .because that’s my character. 

QO: So Turks conquered Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire beginning with the Ottoman Empire. The War of the Roses, civil wars between rival noble factions began in England. Having invented printing with movable type. Oh, Germany. Okay, Johann Gutenberg completes the first Bible. That’s it. 

RL: Damn, I was just trying to pick like an era where like, design wasn’t a real thing yet. So yeah, if I was from the 1400s, how would you describe your own aesthetic? And you have to do the accent.

QO: Oh, how would I describe it?

RL: Yeah, so I’d understand it as a peasant or something and not someone who knows design terms. 

QO: So I would say it’s about the feeling that- it’s about like your feudal lord watches every penny you produce every crop that you grow, they watch, you have sons and daughters, they watch you have, like wives and husbands, right? 

They want you to feed yourself to make sure that you’re feeding the higher lords. Like, you get any money and they make sure that it’s taxed. Now, they give you time off, to make sure you go and have fun. But that fun is really just fuel for their crops, right? 

You’re no different than the ox, that you have to plow, you know. You’re no different than the plow itself, you’re no different than the tools that you use to farm the land. You’re just another object. 

So this idea is about freeing yourself from those objects and not being an object anymore. So it’s like, you now have the tools to go live off the land somewhere else. But then it’s like, you want to become so dangerous that you don’t need that feudal lord, right? So not only are you able to defend yourself against people who might want to take you back into feudalism, but against other companies, like feudalism sort of started because you want protection. 

So it’s like, okay, we’ll protect you, but you have to do all that for us, right? It’s like an older brother. But like, yeah, it’s the idea of becoming so self-sufficient is so dangerous that nobody can stop you from producing your own means of survival. I think that would be the core of it. 

RL: I like it. It felt like you’d like plan that out, like you already knew I was gonna ask this. Because that was so accurate and detailed for not very much time to think about it. What about if I was a caveman?

QO: If I was a caveman, it would be like “I am become fire, bringer of cook meat.” 

“You cannot botulism. Me, I am the God of lightning.”

It’s a power trip. It’s all about a power trip based off of technology. Right? So it’s like technology for your own benefit. No one else was, fuck everyone else. Hell wants something from you. They’re just trying to take your shit, don’t let them take your shit.

Everyone’s watching you cross the way in the stone valley and trying to take your pelts so you got to do the death of a rock. Because you just found out about rocks. He doesn’t know about them. So you’re gonna be higher up and dealing with upgrades. Surveillancecore is really no different than any other.

RL: Okay, so next question. Imagine if there’s an alarm right now that sounds off. And that-. 

QO: *Makes loud alarm sound with their mouth*

RL: Yeah, like really annoying. 

Have you seen those Tiktoks of different countries’ like emergency or nationwide emergency alarms? Some of them are so cool like a beat drop but some of them are like, creepy. So imagine like the creepy, blood-curdling ones went off right now. 

An image on the TV says you have 60 seconds to go into a bunker and pretend you have a bunker, and you have to fill a time capsule in that time. And you can throw in three objects that commemorate you before you die. What would those objects be? They would have to be around you like that you have to grab right now within a minute.

QO: It would be a waterproof black Uniball pen-.

RL: Waterproof? 

OC: Yeah, the ink is waterproof because I had a teacher who said that he dropped his notebook in the snow at one point and then it bleeped all of the pages, and he lost all of his drawings throughout years. So I always use waterproof just in case. 

So yeah, I think that’s worthwhile to like- if a stranger is going to find this, it’s like they’re not going to know a lot about me from it. But if they’re not going to know anything, I’d rather for them to have that anyway. But if they’re going to understand who I am as a person I would put- I always have in my wallet a picture of my mom with her favorite dog so I’d put that in there and I’d put my pink earrings that I wear every now and then. 

RL: Would you not put one of your toys in there?

QO: Maybe. I feel like I’d want it to be just like- those toys are something that I do, but I guess I separate those things. Like who I am as the person who makes this stuff not the product that comes out so I want it to be things that I make with or that I like. 

RL: That makes sense. Well, that’s all the questions I have for you tonight. Thanks for having this chat with me, I got to learn a lot about how you think as not only a designer but a maker and artist.